Brad Fitzpatrick ([info]bradfitz) wrote in [info]news,
@ 2003-02-10 10:41:00
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Monday News Update
The Limit Mess
I want to apology for last week's limit controversy. I need to stop making rushed technical changes that have social implications. While I've been told that before, this latest incident really made it clear.

Fortunately, we've got the new servers online and we've done some optimizations to the database that have improved performance, so I'm not stressed out anymore. With a clear head, I can now look back and see that I did handle things poorly.

Most of all, I made the change too quickly without giving people warning ahead of time, especially the other employees and support volunteers. Second, the wording of my original post wasn't clear in parts, introducing more questions than it answered. For example, my clarification "posts to communities count" was interpreted by many users as "the community can only have 5 posts/day" where what I meant to convey was that the 5 posts/day limit on free users was on any journal they posted in, be it their own or some community. So the free community could get 200 posts/day, if they come from different users. But anyway, that's just one example of a detail that was unclear. There were many others.

Before any form of rate limiting goes live, I'll put up a page explaining the details about everything. I'll also release the raw stats to show why whatever limits we end up deciding on are reasonable.

The goal when choosing the numbers is for paid users to never be affected (the limit should be so high that it'd never be hit except by scripts) and for free users to be able to use the site normally, with only the most addicted of those occasionally bumping into the limit, reminding them they're heavy users and should support the site.

Any future limits will be heavily discussed first in [info]lj_biz, with a notice made to [info]news to come there and participate. We won't ever limit max comments per post. (which was a lot of people's concern)

Anyway, I am sorry. I feel really guilty getting everybody so angry unnecessarily. It could've been handled a lot better. I know I can only make the "I'm a programmer, not a business person" excuse so many times, but please believe that I'm learning from my mistakes, at least slowly.

comm_news
[info]denisep and [info]jproulx are going to resume using [info]comm_news, describing it as "a more low-key place to keep you updated on community stuff. For now, we're running it as a question-and-answer format, but in the future, there'll be some other features." So, add that to your friends list if you want to read more about LJ stuff.

Maintenance Window
We've also decided that starting soon, we're going to have a regularly scheduled maintenance window. Obviously, we can't plan ahead for emergencies, but for cases when we know ahead of time that we're going to need to do server work, it'll all happen at one specific time per week.

We've scheduled Tuesday nights at midnight PST (GMT -0800) for scheduled server maintenance. Each week, if there's routine maintenance to be done, that's when it'll happen. So, if it's coming up on midnight PST on a Tuesday, save your work just in case. (Of course, [info]lisa or I will also post to [info]lj_maintenance before & after...)

T-Shirts
We're looking into T-shirt sales again. The plan is to get high-quality, rugged silk-screened T-shirts with a simple design (no embarassing slogan, like last time, which many people objected to) and sell them incredibly cheap, just barely above cost. (and we'll probably buy a bunch to start, just to make it even cheaper...)

Social Contract
The Debian project has a Social Contract which many other sites on the web have copied and altered. We've been talking about putting up our own social contract (perhaps with a different name?) to lay down our promises to the community.

For example: we'll never advertise, we'll never spam (or sell our email list), permanent accounts will never be charged, the core code will remain open source, etc...

We're still working on collecting items users would be concerned about, but we do want to have one central place for people to see our intentions. If you want to help flesh this out, check out Jesse's post.

The Bazaar
We're about to launch a new developer area of the site: The Bazaar. Consider this a sneak preview. More detailed post about it coming later.



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[info]jlm1779
2003-02-10 10:45 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the clarification, Brad :)

(Reply to this)


[info]deslea
2003-02-10 10:46 am UTC (link)
Wow.

Thank you, Brad. These are really good, healthy developments, and I appreciate the thought you've put into them very much.

(Reply to this)


[info]happypenguin
2003-02-10 10:47 am UTC (link)
Thanks Brad, all the info is appreciated. As you've realised, when people aren't told about stuff until after it's happened people get annoyed. It seems more in the ethos of open source software to discuss what's going to be included (even if it's necessary like limits).

(Reply to this) (Thread)

I agree
[info]low_delta
2003-02-10 02:09 pm UTC (link)
Even bad news is much easier to take when the reasons are explained.

Brad, please make sure your crew makes the effort to keep us up to date.

And would you please explain the reasons behind the posting limits? I have only a vague idea of what sort of abuses you're trying to stop.

Thanks

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]calliste
2003-02-10 10:47 am UTC (link)
Wir lieben dich trotzdem alle :P

Du bist schließlich ein ganz netter Programmierer.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]bradfitz
2003-02-10 10:53 am UTC (link)
Ich danke Dir. Es wäre schön, wenn ich ein perfekter Geschäftsmann wäre, aber leider bin ich nicht.

sterbbittedanke :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]calliste, 2003-02-10 10:56 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]timwi, 2003-02-10 11:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bradfitz, 2003-02-10 11:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bradfitz, 2003-02-10 11:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]calliste, 2003-02-10 11:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]clauclauclaudia, 2003-02-10 05:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]calliste, 2003-02-11 06:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]timwi, 2003-02-11 06:34 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]clauclauclaudia, 2003-02-11 06:41 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]calliste, 2003-02-11 07:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]clauclauclaudia, 2003-02-11 08:30 am UTC (Expand)

[info]sida_al_hurra
2003-02-10 10:48 am UTC (link)
What an eloquent apology : )

(Reply to this)


[info]ex_ladyvox549
2003-02-10 10:49 am UTC (link)
*thumbs up*

(Reply to this)


[info]annotated_em
2003-02-10 10:49 am UTC (link)
Y'all are awesome. [thumbs up]

(Reply to this)


[info]soleta
2003-02-10 10:51 am UTC (link)
very much appreciated. that's a much better explanation than the others you've given. you just took away all my objections to said limits. ^__^ good job and good luck.

(Reply to this)


[info]nezchan
2003-02-10 10:51 am UTC (link)

This all sounds much more informative and helpful than what's gone before.

For the most part, I'm on board with the posting limits you proposed in the revised message, and can easily see the rationale behind the paid member limit. However, I still do have a concern about communities. I'd personally prefer it if community posts didn't count directly against a user's (especially a free user's) limit. What I'd like so see is a system where the free user gets 5 posts/day, as has already been suggested, plus an additional 2 posts/day for each community they post to. This, I think, would get around the issue of communities losing posts so that free users can save those posts for their own private journals.

Of course, you're still left with the issue that some users may use a system like that to post in communities as if they were their own private journals, just to get those extra posts, but I'd say that's the responsibility of the individual community monitors to deal with. I know I'm prepared to do that for [info]transgender.

Good to see some decent policies are evolving. I can't wait to see how that social contract works out.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]soleta
2003-02-10 10:56 am UTC (link)
I think what Brad was saying (this is how *I* read it) is that a free user could post five times in his journal and five times in community A, five times in community B, etc etc, all in the same day. it's 5 posts per journal.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]calliste, 2003-02-10 10:59 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]soleta, 2003-02-10 11:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]soleta, 2003-02-10 10:59 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]calliste, 2003-02-10 11:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tbone, 2003-02-10 11:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bradfitz, 2003-02-10 11:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nezchan, 2003-02-10 11:21 am UTC (Expand)
Re: - [info]tbone, 2003-02-10 11:44 am UTC (Expand)

[info]rhiannonstone
2003-02-10 10:52 am UTC (link)
YAY T-SHIRTS!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

I want a T-Shirt
[info]light_journey
2003-02-10 04:19 pm UTC (link)
I would buy a couple of t-shirts

maidmarian1958

(Reply to this) (Parent)

T-Shirts
[info]abiku
2003-02-10 10:52 am UTC (link)
I wasn't around for the previous t-shirt sale (I don't think), so I don't know if this was asked/answered then, but are you planning on offering colors other than the standard, easy-to-get-printed white t-shirts? I'd pony up for a shirt or two to help out, but my wardrobe tends to be mostly dark or black...

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: T-Shirts
[info]bradfitz
2003-02-10 10:55 am UTC (link)
The previous t-shirts were only black.

I'm not sure about colors this time around.... I'd hope black is at least an option myself. Maybe light blue and black? No clue, to be honest. I'm not really involved in the t-shirt stuff much.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: T-Shirts - [info]broken_angel, 2003-02-10 06:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: T-Shirts - [info]katrrrina, 2003-02-12 07:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: T-Shirts - [info]mamajoan, 2003-02-10 11:02 am UTC (Expand)
Re: T-Shirts - [info]grapepopsicle, 2003-02-10 04:06 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]valpussycat
2003-02-10 10:52 am UTC (link)
hmm, i did think you jumped the gun a bit there hehe. but you're forgiven, and i hope you've learned your lesson *pats head*. it looks like you've got some great projects coming up. it'll be interesting to see them in action.

(Reply to this)


[info]jette
2003-02-10 10:52 am UTC (link)
Good Job.

It's amazing how emotionally invested we all are, isn't it?

With only the most addicted of those occasionally bumping into the limit, reminding them they're heavy users and should support the site.

Which would be about ten... the way I post (yes, I am a paid user.)

I am curious, have you ever looked into actually making live journal an actual 501(c)3? (Yes, you can definitely earn a good living working with a non-profit.) There may be advantages to that, it seems like at one point you would like to have less (or no) day to day responsiblity but without abandoning it to the fates in terms of your original vision for it. 23 is a little young to be wedded to anything. If it was a non-profit or a foundation, you might be able to shape its long term future in a different way.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]algeh
2003-02-10 02:23 pm UTC (link)
I would just like to add that I really like the 501(c)3 idea. I've been feeling increasingly uncomfortable volunteering for LiveJournal lately (I'm one of those support people) because, after all, I really like my gas station (they even wash my windows!) but that doesn't mean that I go volunteer to pump gas for them to help them out. If LiveJournal wanted to pursue this, I'd be glad to help out any way I could.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]thistle_chaser
2003-02-10 10:54 am UTC (link)
I need to stop making rushed technical changes that have social implications.

It's hard having to run something where you need to balance the technical needs vs. the "social" needs (the needs of the users). In my personal opinion (for what that's worth), you didn't do such a bad thing. The technical needs are way, way too often overlooked by users (especially ones who contribute nothing (money-wise) and take everything for granted).

Thanks for handling all this, and for letting us use such a great site. :) I'm a paid user, and I will continue to be for as long as I keep a LJ.

Thanks again.

(Reply to this)

PR!
[info]crypticel
2003-02-10 10:55 am UTC (link)
You should get a public relations specialist, and run everything by them before you say it! Saves on hordes of angry people screaming at you and each other, and I know how stressful that gets from sites I've worked at. (Yeah, this is just the way I think. I'm a PR major. :-P)

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: PR!
[info]bradfitz
2003-02-10 10:59 am UTC (link)
We actually have an internal community for employees and we all tend to review each other's posts. The problem is I didn't use it for my last two, when I was in a hurry. :-/

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: PR! - [info]azurelunatic, 2003-02-10 11:14 am UTC (Expand)
Re: PR! - [info]crypticel, 2003-02-10 12:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: PR! - [info]algeh, 2003-02-10 02:28 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: PR! - [info]sunnydale47, 2003-02-10 11:18 am UTC (Expand)
Re: PR! - [info]crypticel, 2003-02-10 12:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: PR! - [info]wyliekat, 2003-02-10 12:09 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]jhimm
2003-02-10 10:55 am UTC (link)
quite honestly,
i think you all do a whiz-bang job.
with a 4 digit ID# i feel a bit funny claiming to go "way back"
but then again,
we're about to go into 7 digits.
point is,
the impression i've always had
is you never expected things to get this big.

you've survived a transition to massive scale better than most dot com's did.
you've gone out of your way to make everyone happy whenever you could,
often at the expense of your own lives.

whenever i see these threads i feel like shouting
"you know, they didn't ask for this, people."

personally,
i think some hardcore limits aren't such a bad thing.
personally,
i think people are afraid they'll loose their free lunch.
personally,
i couldn't care less.


*raising a glass*
not a day goes by i'm not thankful for the fact
that you all have put up with us this long.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]waning_estrogen
2003-02-10 02:11 pm UTC (link)
*clink*
hear! hear!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mullenkamp
2003-02-10 10:56 am UTC (link)
Thanks a lot for the update and the explanation - I think people will find the whole posting limit thing seems a lot less intimidating now that it's been explained. It cleared up any lingering uncertainties I had, anyway.

I'd do the little "thumbs-up" icon, but I see this journal is one of those who has the icons turned off. Heh, mine too, actually.

(Reply to this)

Dear Livejournal folk
[info]tsarina
2003-02-10 10:56 am UTC (link)
Thank you for all the hard work and the wonderful site. Thank you also for taking the time to inform the community through these posts about the changes and the thoughts behind them. I know y'all have only the best intentions at heart. Buying an account here was one of the best things I've ever spent money for on the net.

Can't wait to see the tshirts.
-Amanda

(Reply to this)


[info]hummingwolf
2003-02-10 10:57 am UTC (link)
Thank you for the clarification! Don't feel too guilty about the limits controversy. Sure, it could have been handled much better, but you did the best you knew at the time--and now at least there's a good healthy discussion of why limits might be needed.

(Reply to this)


[info]mamajoan
2003-02-10 11:00 am UTC (link)
Wow, a very classy apology. Go Brad. You rule.

(Reply to this)


[info]wesleysgirl
2003-02-10 11:00 am UTC (link)
Thank you.

I'm wondering if there will be different rules for paid communities vs free ones? I'm the "owner" of a paid community LJ and I feel that paid communities should get the same number of posts per day that paid users get. This would mean that posts in a paid community would not count against the posters' personal daily totals until the community's own daily post limit had been met. I hope some decision will be made regarding this issue.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bradfitz
2003-02-10 11:06 am UTC (link)
Yeah, paid communities will be different, perhaps working just how you describe. Though the thing I don't like about that way (even though it sounds nice) is that a person posting won't know if post would count or not. So, I'm considering also something like paid communities give each member 2 free posts/day in that community, on top of their normal 5/day anywhere.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]scientaestubiqu, 2003-02-11 10:52 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]perdurabo
2003-02-10 11:01 am UTC (link)
Everyone makes mistakes, and we all realize that. I for one was upset at the limits when I first read about it,more so for how it was foisted on us than the limits themselves, but I did realize the need for them. But you can tell by the poll results that the vast majority of folks here are happy. There will always be those who if you walked on water would criticize you for not being able to swim. I've had a LJ since June 2000 and have always been very happy with the site, and continue to be. Hopefully this whole incident will make people realize you're not a dictator and do care what we think. Those who criticize you for having a new car were probably sleeping those nights you stayed up keeping the site running when you could have been sleeping or working on school stuff. Us early adopters remember those times.

(Reply to this)


[info]7rin
2003-02-10 11:01 am UTC (link)
{{{{{Brad}}}}} Thanks for the clarification - and yay to the less stress! :)

And please please please with the t.shirts 'cause I sooooo wanna LJ t.shirt.

(Reply to this)

Saving Resources
[info]daz71
2003-02-10 11:02 am UTC (link)
Just a thought, but it does seem that even after 30 days your systems keep deleted accounts, how much space would you get back if you deleted de-activated accounts which were over 30 days old? Could accounts which have no entries be automatically set to "deleted" after 30 days?

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: Saving Resources
[info]bradfitz
2003-02-10 11:10 am UTC (link)
Disk space isn't a concern. Disk is incredibly cheap, and we have tons.

Deleting stuff actually hurts, because it takes time to delete, and the result is fragmentation. Imagine a disk block full of entries from one day (say Jan 5th). Now, the system automatically deletes some guy's journal with an entry on the day. The DB then fills in that newly created hole with a entry made today.

Now, the operating system brings in that disk page with tons of other entries, just to get that one new entry. It's inefficient.

What matters is activity... drive heads moving around. Processors doing work. That's what we try to minimize.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Saving Resources - [info]piphil, 2003-02-10 11:17 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Saving Resources - [info]eaterofhands, 2003-02-10 02:52 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Saving Resources - [info]badgerbadger, 2003-02-10 11:12 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Saving Resources - [info]c0c0c0, 2003-02-10 11:13 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Saving Resources - [info]clauclauclaudia, 2003-02-10 05:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Saving Resources - [info]sjonsvenson, 2003-02-12 06:18 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ntang
2003-02-10 11:02 am UTC (link)
Very nicely written. This is all good stuff.

(Reply to this)


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